NBC 10… Legal commentary live breaking news. Tracy Davidson … . John “Johnny Doc” Dougherty and Councilman Bobby Henon were both found guilty of conspiracy and other charges after a month-long federal trial.

Video Transcript

let’s bring in nbc legal analyst Enrique L1 latoison and Enrique i know you’ve been following this thanks for being with us walk us through your thoughts as we are just learning that john dougherty guilty of eight of charges bobby heenan found guilty of at least charges what do you think well i mean this case was very interesting because it had a very political underpinning to what the charges were in this case so it was an interesting case because i was looking to see how the jury would they reject this argument would they say that this simply was business as usual and this is what happens in politics or would they be offended by this and would they follow the prosecution’s uh theory and would they find him guilty unfortunately for the two defendants they were found guilty on a majority of the charges um you know it’s some things are kind of you know the way things happen in politics and then there’s that gray area where you kind of wonder is that illegal or is that just the way things are and the defense in this case really spent a lot of time talking about you know hey you can’t bribe someone that is doing something they already would do and that is kind of what the basis of the defense was is this is just politics these are people that are doing the best they can for their constituents and that everything was out in the open there’s nothing illegal now of course the prosecution in this case really said hey this crossed the line this went into corruption this is illegal and the jury found it their way yeah they asked for the jury asked for guidance on thursday when do campaign contributions become bribes and to your point the jury pool was selected from across our region not just in philly where you could argue that some people might just say it is business as usual this is how things get done talk about that how important that jury pool is i mean i i was really fascinated by this case because you know when you look at politics today in people usually just fall on one side or the other either for this person or you’re against this person and pretty much people clash and that kind of what the underpinnings of this trial was about hey this is politics as usual or hey this is a crime and you kind of wonder whether or not that jury coming from different areas different backgrounds different uh types of beliefs you know would they be able to come together and get a verdict in this case you know i would not have been surprised if it was a hung jury you know i’m surprised that they were able to you know i you know but juries work kind of a wheeling deal sometimes so you know some chargers were found not guilty and the majority of charges were found guilty so that gives to tell you that they probably were able to work together come together and come to a verdict you know but when you deal with campaign uh donations and different things you know there’s always that gray area of whether or not someone is doing something because they want to support that candidate they want to support that position that’s what lobbyists do or is this over the line is this saying you know do we expect something in return for what for what this campaign donation is well obviously the jury at least in at least a couple of these charges more than a couple eight of the eleven thought they did go over the line will john dougherty and bobby heaney go home tonight what do you think well i i can tell you in reference to johnny dockery i mean he still has two more federal trials coming up this was only trial one and three unfortunately for him now mr heaning and mr dougherty they appeared they come to court they’re not in danger to society so to speak this is a non-violent crime you know typically a judge may up their bail but i believe that you know if they’ve come to court they know they’ve been facing this they haven’t missed any court date um there’s no reason that it’s okay if the judge were to say that they could go home and return to sentencing in the future would there be other stipulations put on that until your sentencing in february yeah typically you will find that sometimes the prosecution don’t move for immediate incarceration but also sometimes home detention house arrests things of that nature to kind of keep an eye on them but you know we are dealing with a white-collar crime here so this is a non-violent crime so at the end of the day you know the judge has to decide whether or not they’re danger to society and you know when you’re dealing with a white-collar crime that’s normally not the determination but more importantly are they a flight risk and you know all the times they’ve appeared to court this case been going on for a long time mr dougherty was facing three trials this is only one out of three so yes there could be stipulation for house arrest um home detention checking in things of that nature or maybe a higher bail but i i expect that they would be released to go home tonight did the wiretapping recordings play a role in this do you think well you asked that question but you know me and some colleagues were speaking the other day and when you’re being recorded you don’t know you’re recording maybe people are not at their best like that sort of speak and you know when someone to take a recording of something that people were talking about and say hey did you listen to this person um you know sometimes people just don’t sound um they don’t sound as good as they normally would if they knew they were being recorded so i think that when you hear those recordings and you hear the tone and you hear the things that are being said yes it paints people in a bad light and i do think that that does play a part because it allows the jury to hear how you actually we’re speaking or how you actually think about particular topics and different things that you’re discussing when you’re on those phone calls as you mentioned this is just the first trial for john dougherty he has two more to go yes he does this is just the beginning of his legal troubles unfortunately so he’s got two more trials coming up in reference to those cases will have his day in court if he’s going to choose to do so depending on what’s happening with these two cases or this case rosemary made the point earlier that this this trial has implications not just for the other trial moving forward for for john dougherty but really across city politics yes because you know i this trial like i said before it’s fascinating because you know it depends on how you want to look at this case i mean if you want to look at it and just say hey these are people doing politics this is the way politics is politics is a dirty game or it’s a messy game at the end of the day what are we trying to accomplish here we’re trying to help our constituents or we’re trying to get people to do things to help each other out and that this is all normal this is all fair game but then you move over to that other area where you say well hey this is illegal these things that are being done are against the rules you’re crossing a line and no longer are these things to be accepted so you know when this jury went out and they’ve been out for about i guess since thursday you know i was very curious to see how this was going to come back and this is sending a message this is sending a message to say hey clean up politics stay out of the gray area make it black and white make sure it’s clear no more being in the gray area or maybe it seems things that they shouldn’t be so this is a clear message to say like hey if you thought what these guys did was the gray area and they were found guilty well then you know to move back away from that line stay away from that line don’t get close to that line so you don’t find yourself in a federal trial like this one right enrique can you stay where you are we’re going to come back to you but we want to go to nbc ‘s rosemary connor she’s live outside the federal courthouse in center city and rosemary before you start i just want to tell our viewers that the sentencing we said set for february february nd for bobby heenan february rd for john dougherty rosemary you’re there we are here tracy outside of the federal courthouse in philadelphia and there are a throng of cameras here obviously this has been a closely watched trial and we do expect the u.s attorney’s office federal prosecutors in this case to come out here and give us some comment once they wrap up everything inside court we also expect to potentially hear from john dougherty and bobby heenan’s defense lawyers to tell us what they plan to do they may plan to appeal this and what you know what that may look like we’ll have to wait and see in terms of the grounds that they they plan to appeal on i wanna i wanna bring up something enrique just pointed out uh talking about you know this this is now no longer business as usual as some people may have viewed this kind of dynamic or relationship in city hall to be more specific it’s interesting through trial through a lot of the testimony especially when it was the defense’s turn to present their case in chief they brought witnesses for now and lauren of course is is gathering all that information for us uh so that she can uh relate to us by email and then we can give it to you on the air uh like i said we’ve got not only am i here with my photographer we have another crew maybe about feet away from me we’ve got sky force in the air and then i believe another crew around the corner at the other entrance to the federal courthouse lauren did just put out a tweet saying the jury has been dismissed sentencing has been set for february as we mentioned question now turns to whether heenan and dougherty will be detained something we’ve been talking about here so a lot of questions still to be answered but one thing is for sure they have been uh deemed guilty this jury has found them guilty of some of these charges tracy all right rosemary thanks for that to our viewers if you are just joining us at two o’clock to check on your regular program we are on the air with breaking news guilty verdicts in the john doherty and bobby henan federal trial corruption trial bribery trial we are waiting to know the breakdown of the charges but we can tell you that john dougherty was found guilty of eight of charges bobby heenan guilty of at least charges and i’m just being told that they are revoking their bail they are not revoking their bail my apologies they are not revoking their bail let’s bring in enrique again talk about that you said because it’s a white-collar climb crime they may not have their their bail revoked so it is not going to be revoked they will be going home tonight awaiting that sentencing in february tell us more what the court could do again so it’s um you know the bail’s not being revoked which is not surprising for it being a non-violent crime um them making it to all the court dates and them appearing and showing up today and knowing the joy’s been out since last thursday they did what they were supposed to do uh yes the jury has not come back in their favor but the judge has given them the benefit to be able to go home now what takes place from here is the federal sentencing process now that process is that probation which is part of the federal system will have an opportunity to interview both defendants and they will talk to them they will do a mock-up of everything from where they went to school high school college training uh family uh money um you know their wealth their everything and basically what they’ll do is they’ll make a recommendation to the judge or what they believe the sentencing guidelines are and what that sentencing guidelines should be and what they recommend then what will happen is the prosecution they’ll do their own citizen memorandum and they will tell the court why they believe that the um the sentencing should be a particular sentencing and the defense will have an opportunity to submit a memo and they also will have an opportunity to do that and of course at the actual sentencing both sides can prevent present witnesses to then to give to the judge for the judge to make their decision on whatever sentencing they’re going to do we heard wrote we heard rosemary saying that the first question that she will ask the defense is will you appeal what’s the likelihood of that what is that what would that appeal look like so um appeals and federal cases are very common um everyone appeals so every time a someone makes an objection or there’s a argument about evidence coming in or not being allowed in um what happens at that time is those issues can be reviewed on an appeal on a pellet level and they can put that together and they can make their appeal to a higher court to say that you know something should have been done differently or some evidence should have been allowed and things of that nature and also whether or not um there was a case down south years ago where i think someone was found guilty in a case similar to this and it was overturned because the courts determined that that wasn’t a crime so i believe that in this particular case it being a kind of political uh type case corruption bribery case um of course you can probably imagine that they would be appealing to try to assert some sort of claims uh rosemary brought up a very important point again is that these things were done in the open this was not something that was done uh hidden or secret and so that being said you know one could try to argue an appeal that maybe a crime didn’t occur so appeal appellate process is a process that every american has afforded even when you are found guilty legal analyst Enrique L1 Latoison enrique thank you so much for joining us on this we’ll get back to you right now…

let’s bring in nbc legal analysts enrique l juan latoys and enrique i know you’ve been following this thanks for being with us walk us through your thoughts as we are just learning that john dougherty guilty of eight of charges bobby heenan found guilty of at least charges what do you think well i mean this case was very interesting because it had a very political underpinning to what the charges were in this case so it was an interesting case because i was looking to see how the jury would they reject this argument would they say that this simply was business as usual and this is what happens in politics or would they be offended by this and would they follow the prosecution’s uh theory and would they find him guilty unfortunately for the two defendants um they were found guilty on a majority of the charges um you know it’s some things are kind of you know the way things happen in politics and then there’s that gray area where you kind of wonder is that illegal or is that just the way things are and the defense in this case really spent a lot of time talking about you know hey you can’t bribe someone that is doing something they already would do and that is kind of what the basis of the defense was is this is just politics these are people that are doing the best they can for their constituents and that everything was out in the open there’s nothing illegal now of course the prosecution in this case really said hey this crossed the line this went into corruption this is illegal and the jury found it their way yeah they asked for the jury asked for guidance on thursday when do campaign contributions become bribes and to your point the jury pool was selected from across our region not just in philly where you could argue that some people might just say it is business as usual this is how things get done talk about that how important that jury pool is i mean i i was really fascinated by this case because you know when you look at politics today in people usually just fall on one side or the other either for this person or you’re against this person and pretty much people clash and that kind of what the underpinnings of this trial was about hey this is politics as usual or hey this is a crime and you kind of wonder whether or not that jury coming from different areas different backgrounds different uh types of beliefs you know would they be able to come together and get a verdict in this case you know i would not have been surprised if it was a hung jury you know i’m surprised that they were able to you know i you know but juries work kind of a wheeling deal sometimes so you know some chargers were found not guilty and the majority of charges were found guilty so that gives to tell you that they probably were able to work together come together and come to a verdict you know but when you deal with campaign uh donations and different things you know there’s always that gray area of whether or not someone is doing something because they want to support that candidate they want to support that position that’s what lobbyists do or is this over the line is this a you know do we expect something in return for what we’re for what this campaign donation is well obviously the jury at least in at least a couple of these charges more than a couple eight of the thought they did go over the line will john dougherty and bobby heaney go home tonight what do you think well i i can tell you in reference to johnny dockery i mean he still has two more federal trials coming up this was only trial one and three unfortunately for him now mr heaning and mr dougherty they appear they they come to court they’re not in danger to society so to speak this is a non-violent crime you know typically a judge may up their bail but i believe that you know if they come to court they know they’ve been facing this they haven’t missed any court dates um there’s no reason that it’s okay if the judge were to say that they could go home and return to sentencing in the future would there be other stipulations put on that sentencing in february yeah typically you will find that sometimes the prosecution don’t move for immediate incarceration but also sometimes home detention house arrests things of that nature to kind of keep an eye on them but you know we are dealing with a white collar crime here so this is a non-violent crime so at the end of the day the judge has to decide whether or not there are danger to society and you know when you’re dealing with a white collar crime that’s normally not the determination but more importantly are they a flight risk and you know all the times they’ve appeared to court this case been going on for a long time mr dougherty was facing three trials this is only one out of three so yes there could be stipulation for house arrest um home detention checking in things of that nature maybe a higher bail but i i expect that they would be released to go home tonight did the wiretapping recordings play a role in this do you think well you asked that question but you know me and some colleagues were speaking the other day and when you’re being recorded you don’t know you’re recorded maybe people are not at their best like that sort of speak and you know when someone to take a recording of something that people were talking about and say hey did you listen to this person um you know sometimes people just don’t sound um they don’t sound as good as they normally would if they knew they were being recorded so i think that when you hear those recordings and you hear the tone and you hear the things that are being said yes it paints people in a bad light and i do think that that does play a part because it allows the jury to hear how you actually we’re speaking or how you actually think about particular topics and different things that you’re discussing when you’re on those phone calls as you mentioned this is just the first trial for john dougherty he has two more to go yes he does this is just the beginning of his legal troubles unfortunately so he’s got two more trials coming up a reference to those cases will have his day in court if he’s going to choose to do so depending on what’s happening with these two cases or this case rosemary made the point earlier that this this trial has implications not just for the other trial moving forward for for john dougherty but really across city politics yes because you know i this trial like i said before it’s fascinating because you know it depends on how you want to look at this case i mean if you want to look at it and just say hey these are people doing politics this is the way politics is politics is a dirty game or it’s a messy game at the end of the day what are we trying to accomplish here we’re trying to help our constituents or we’re trying to get people to do things to help each other out and that this is all normal this is all fair game but then you you move over to that other area where you say well hey this is illegal these things that are being done are against the rules you’re crossing a line and no longer are these things to be accepted so you know when this jury went out and they’ve been out for about i guess since thursday you know i was very curious to see how this was going to come back and this is sending a message this is sending a message to say hey clean up politics stay out of the gray area make it black and white make sure it’s clear no more being in the gray area or maybe it seems things that they shouldn’t be so this is a clear message to say like hey if you thought what these guys did was the gray area and they were found guilty well then you know to move back away from that line stay away from that line don’t get close to that line so you don’t find yourself in a federal trial like this one right enrique can you stay where you are we’re going to come back to you but we want to go to nbc ‘s rosemary connor she’s…

a lot to unpack here let’s bring in nbc legal analyst Enrique L1 Latoison and enrique he was a mixed verdict with dougherty and henan both found guilty on multiple charges but acquitted of others what does that say about the prosecution’s case well this was a very complicated case and they had very complicated topics when you’re dealing with the case that kind of is in a gray area of what is politics and what is over the line to be bribery and corruption and so the jury in this case had three days of deliberations and had some actually jury questions to try to unpack this this was not an easy case it wasn’t an easy case for either side and when you look at the case um the prosecution was able to get majority guilty verdicts and the charges they were able to get guilty verdicts on could put them behind boards for up to to years so when you’re looking at a case like this was it politics as usual or was it a crime it was difficult but in the end prosecution came out ahead here and we know dougherty said he was found guilty even though this is how politics and business are typically conducted he said legally in philadelphia but does this send a message a signal to other political figures do you think enrique well you know uh mr heenan was allowed to have that job while he was still part of the council so and this job was out in the open it wasn’t a secret you know the prosecution said you know this job was a sham job and it was more of a bribe and so really this case is just it’s fascinating because it really comes down to what is politics or is politics just a dirty game where people do things that may or may not uh be exactly illegal but maybe up to the line but in this case they said the line was crossed so going forward politicians will have to make sure that they don’t get close to that line don’t get into the gray area make sure it’s clear so you’re not put in a position where you are being prosecuted and being accused of bribery and corruption we know both are planning to appeal sentencing is scheduled for february nd nbc legal analyst enrique elwyn latoyson thank you

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